If Blood was done today

[Lizzieborden]

Never been to Estonia.
Are there Blood- worthy Cathedrals there? Loooove cathedrals. esp early Gothic, like Lausanne's . Hauntingly beautiful. Being a fervent Catholic and a Blood lover mix will do that to ya.

Would love to learn Russian so I can read Dostoevski (I was a Comparative Literature major, wish I learned to code instead !!

Hey , perhaps you could start a topic, with sound uploads, of really sucky dubbing attempts of Blood.
I am sure everyone here would love it (I sure would).
Not sure how sound files could be uploaded, though. Ask the Meister (whose RATM work is top notch btw--give it a spin)

Just got back from a long night's work, so cheers to you as I unwind and sip my second margarita!


PS. I never played Blood 2, and hear it was awful. It is not in my win 98 HD nor in the big box collection either. I guess that means my uncle really hated it.

[Lizzieborden]

So damn chatty.
Someone needs to shut me up!

[Vantala]

Are there Blood- worthy Cathedrals there?

Pick your fav.





We have many: Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran. We also have some castles.

I never played Blood 2, and hear it was awful.

It was... underwhelming. For a bunch of reasons.

• They've changed the setting from "gothic" 30s to generic modern. Maybe it would be better if they went full on cyberpunk style.
• The game has lots of weapons, but some of them are more useless that others. Like the Howitzer that uses rare ammo while taking an inventory slot, AND HOW DID THEY MANAGE TO MAKE A GODDMAN BLACK HOLE GENERATOR SO USELESS???
• The enemy AI is.. lacking. Human enemies are annoying hitscanners that just stand in one place and shoot you with near-100% accuracy. Non-human enemies are bullet-spongy as hell (ESPECIALLY those Behemoths). And someone in the development team thought "crawling hands were not enough, we need MORE facehugging monsters!"
• The plot is just... not good enough to be taken seriously, not funny enough to laugh.
• The development was rushed, and it's noticeable.

It wasn't unplayable, but it wasn't as good as its predecessor.

Speaking of Blood again - anyone played that Extra Crispy mod released this year?

[Soben]

Wow what a detailed and well thought out proposal! I like the idea of a prequel, I know blood 2 wasnt well received and is somewhat shunned so maybe it's good to get away from it xD

With regards to worrying about killing civilians/ legality and postal, I loved postal 2 and I think there is/should be a place for darker humour. I suppose I dont know the ins and outs of how that would effect whether some platforms would allow it. But take the game hatred which came out to some outrage in 2015, where your objective is to murder everyone, innocents and all, it's still up and available on steam!

My most favourite suggestion:

Monsters:
First thing first, the game would NOT include gargoyles, spiders and hell hounds - they are the children of three Tchrnobog lieutenants who

Gawsh I hate the fire doggos

Also Tere! Estonia is a lovely place, been to Tallinn twice loved old town and ate at olde hansa :3

[Lizzieborden]

Holy Mother of God, those are great cathedrals you have there in Estonia!! Some seem to have a Transept (and are thus not Orthodox but likely Catholic)
Definitely will try to get a temp work visa. Thx so much for sharing this
Are non-secular Estonians Catholic btw?

About Blood mod you mentioned:
Did not hear of it till you mentioned it. Will look it up (and thx for this as well) .I assume it is Nblood compatible.

Almost 5 am here, busy night, gonna pass out

[Vantala]

Tere!

Gawsh I hate the fire doggos

More than the crawling hands?

Are non-secular Estonians Catholic btw?

I don't have statistics, but I assume that many are Lutheran, and there's a large Russian diaspora there, so there's quite a lot of Eastern Orthodox people. But Estonia have been Catholic for several centuries before the Reformation.

[Lizzieborden]

Agreed: Those crawling hands are the worst. Worse than face huggers in duke. Or mosquitoes in redneck rampage (yeah I know, this game gets a lot of hate ). Same principle, different variables...and same suckiness!!
Miserere mei Domine!

[Daedalus]

Welcome to the Altar of Stone, Vantala. What a pleasure it is to read such an extensive dream about the possibilities of a new Blood game. It certainly is a cyclic topic, but that's no reason not to indulge. In order to improve legibility, given the size of your initial post, I'm going to have to get quite a few quotes in to respond sensibly.

The core idea:
As we know, long long ago Caleb was a cowboy dude from the Wild West. But we've never seen his adventures in the Wild West setting. So let's think of a prequel to the original Blood that would depict Caleb's more early years in the Cabal... and had a lot of classic western references in addition to classic horror movie references.
Also, let's think of a game that actually lets us play not only as Caleb, but also as his three other Chosen friends, as the Blood team originally wanted.

Can't say I'm a huge fan of a large playable cast in games, but let's proceed with your premise.

The gameplay
If Blood was done today, and if it had a big budget, I think it would be a Doom 2016 style FPS - fast-paced, with lots of jumping, with arena-like environments for fighting enemies. (Note: I don't know if the new Doom gameplay formula would work well with hitscan enemies - either make bullets projectiles or add a lot of cover on every arena).

I used to erroneously think that it was impossible to replicate Blood in 3D games, as I thought that it wasn't possible to reproduce Blood's movement and feel correctly in a 3D engine, but games like Shadow Warrior (2013) and DOOM (2016) as per your example have opened my mind to the possibility of such a thing due to player movement being surprisingly fluid within them. That said, I have yet to experience a shooter from which I derive as much pleasure in exploration as I do in Blood. To that end, I am still skeptical as to whether the possibility exists for the feel of exploration in Blood to be recreated in 3D. I think that these days there is a lack of respect and understanding for the utility of simplicity in video games. We can now reproduce millions of colours and create incredibly complex 3D geometry, but there seems to be such a drive to see what can be accomplished that there is no stopping to ask whether we should proceed with such ventures. With regards to the end result, is a beautiful cavern rendered in Unreal Engine 5 really of greater utility for video game purposes than one we might find in the Build Engine? I think that there may well even be a degree of fatigue induced by the sheer amount of "noise" introduced by overly complex geometry and particle effects. The human brain forever works to bring the world to a low resolution, and whether a cavern is four walls with some good shading or three thousand shiny surfaces of different angles, it is the same result for gameplay and in the player's mind.

To transform Blood into a strictly arena shooter would be to diminish it. Arena-like elements or segments could certainly work, but exploration is an integral part of the game, and one cheats Blood if it is stripped of it. Cover is likely a better solution than seeing projectiles for enemies with guns.

In addition to Life Essenses scattered around the level, the player would gain health from killing his enemies and gain more health from killing them WITH STYLE - headshotting, gibbing/overkilling them, multi-killing them and so on.

Blood definitely has an element of vampirism in its DNA.

(For some reason, I love the idea of the voice of Tchernobog commenting the player's kills, like "HEADSHOT!", "DOUBLE KILL!", "EXTRA CRISPY!"... and maybe also mocking the player if he fails to impress his god).

Fun idea, though with this element of "commentary" the game loses any grasp at seriousness and a crossroads is reached here. Is the game intended as rather dark and serious, or corny and arcade-like? Blood successfully integrates both of these elements without going too far in either direction.

And, of course, it will include Glory Kills from Doom 2016.

I've never understood the appeal of pre-rendered animations that disrupt gameplay flow.

The black comedy theme was always present in Blood games... but I'm not sure a modern game protagonist would be allowed to tear out enemy hearts and eat them.

Blood marketed itself on shock factor. If we're going to tiptoe around people's sensibilities, we might as well call it quits or modify the game to better represent some other franchise instead. Blood's better off not being castrated!

Also, somewhere mid-game the player will unlock his Rage Bar. He gains rage by killing enemies, he gains more by killing them with style, the Rage Bar depletes over time, but when it gets full, the player may enter his Chosen Form

Intended for original Blood of course, but a loss of rage over time could force a playstyle. An alternative option would be Painkiller's demon mode, where a certain amount of kills enables such a thing, rather than being centred around time.

The game would have four playable characters, one for each of the first four episodes. The player then may choose any one of them to play the fifth and final episode.
Let's assume the game has seven ammo types: slugs, shells, bullets, dynamite, gasoline, energy cells and soul energy. Each of the Chosen has his own weapons, one for each ammo type.
Each of the Chosen also has a passive ability, a special ability and a Chosen Form - the passive is always present, the later two must be unlocked during the game.

Sounds good, though isn't a "slug" and a "bullet" the same thing?

Caleb
Melee weapon: Bowie knife, 'cause why the hell not.

No pitchfork.
The rest sounds plausible or otherwise good. The lasso would be a bit difficult to make effective given the speed requirements of the action, and its animations would be difficult as well, but it is only a dream after all. There seems no evidence for or against Caleb smoking, although I will point out that smoking is part of Duke Nukem's character.

Ophelia
One thought: what should the Wild West version of Ophelia would look like? In Blood 2 she was a leather-clad punk-like girl, but that would be anachronistic. Should she be a short-haired cowgirl tomboy in man's clothes? Or a saloon singer-type femme fatale in a red dress? Can we somehow have both? Or something else?

There's no rule saying she can't get changed at some point.

Melee weapon: at first I thought about a pair of knieves with low attack damage but high attack speed. But then... how about a whip? It could be also used as a grappling hook. Secondary fire: ...any ideas? Tripping enemies? Or spinning the whip before her to deflect incoming projectiles?

A whip sounds good, if a little kinky. Deflecting projectiles feels a bit too fantasy leaning for Blood. A simple solution for secondary fire might be holding down the button for a charged attack.

Soul energy weapon: the Orb. But it needs something else for secondary fire - it doesn't fit Doom 2016 gameplay formula, and let's be honest, it was never useful anyway. How about launching the Orb with its blades spinnig, damaging everything in its path?

Sounds good to me.

Special ability: Raven Wings. Okay, I have the name, but what does it do? I have some ideas: 1) a Dash that lets Ophelia become incorporeal and pass through enemies and some obstacles, 2) double jump and the ability to spread magical wings to glide with reduced falling speed and increased horizontal speed, 3) can we have both?

Better to stick with Raven Flight. Sounds fine as well.

Fun fact: chronologically Gabriella could be born as a slave and had witnessed - and maybe even participated in - the American Civil War, but... it's a sensitive topic, better not bring those serious matters into our black comedy game.

True. If we'd want to stick with Gabriella and not Gabriel, then there's no explicit need to explain things. It's perfectly okay to leave things open to player interpretation. I have no real comments or criticisms regarding Ishmael's features.

The plot:
The four newly initiated Chosen are summoned by the Tchernobog who gives them a mission: He says that five of His lieutenants have betrayed Him, wanting to use their dark powers to make themselves the rulers of Earth, and Tchernobog orders His servants to kill the traitors and everyone who stands in their way.

Sounds reasonable.

But there's a question: how should the Chosen unlock their Chosen Forms in-game? I see some options:
...
2) The difficult one: to unlock his Chosen Form, a Chosen must defeat one of Tchernobog's lieutenants: Ophelia fights Cheogh, Gabriella fights Shial, Ishmael fights Cerberus, and Caleb fights some unnamed Chosen-in-training. It's the difficult one because it requires the devs to program four unique bosses... and I also think that it's very unlike Cabal - to defeat an enemy, but do not kill him.

It's not immediately clear that those "monster bosses" would understand or even be able to participate in non-lethal combat. Tchernobog should always be central to Blood, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Him grant powers to our protagonists after they accomplish objectives.

I like your idea of Tchernobog orchestrating a test for high ranking members of the Cabal, but the inclusion of the bosses from the original games feels a little forced in this context. It's also not clear if Shial can communicate with humans!

Are we done yet?
Now you may tell me why that idea sucks and no one is going to play it.

It's fun to dream, and most of your ideas certainly don't suck. My only concern with most of your suggestions are that first, they lean a little too hard into arcade territory at times. Blood's certainly got that in spades, but it needs to be grounded to some degree as well, else it turns too capricious and silly.

Finally, I think it's a bit too influenced by Blood 2. Ideally 95+% of that abomination needs to be reduced to dust and forgotten about. Thank you for sharing your imagined creation nonetheless.

As an aside...

So damn chatty.
Someone needs to shut me up!

Never! The site needs much more discussion if it is to ever hope to be more than an empty grave. Hopefully I can work on it a bit more soon.

[Lizzieborden]

A whip sounds good, if a little kinky.

Sounds like fun to me ! !

What a great response to the OP.
Perhaps the best sequel to Blood would be a build + version (The Ion Fury treatment). I am more and more drawn to mid 1990s games for all the issues you (Daedalus) outlined. I even went through Redneck Rampage (and suckin grits and rides again) to keep me busy till the ion fury DLC comes out.

Great addon RATM btw!! Played it a few weeks ago. Luv it!

[Vantala]

Wow, thanks for the detailed response!

Yes, I agree, maybe I was delving too deep into arcade territory, and the game I described would, in some ways, not be Blood as we remember it.

I've never understood the appeal of pre-rendered animations that disrupt gameplay flow.

I read a story from a gaming journalist who asked some Doom 2016 dev team member about their average Glory Kill length and he gave him a number accurate to the hundreth of a second - they knew of the problem too and didn't want the animation to be too long and disrupt the flow of game. I remember when I was playing Brutal Doom some of those animations were REALLY LONG and indeed flow-disrupting.
Seems like the Extra Crispy mod has Glory Kills too, btw, they stole my ideas before I even thought of them!

Sounds good, though isn't a "slug" and a "bullet" the same thing?

I wanted to have different words for large-caliber and small-caliber bullets...

No pitchfork.

Isn't that a PEASANT weapon?

The lasso would be a bit difficult to make effective given the speed requirements of the action, and its animations would be difficult as well, but it is only a dream after all.

Damn, yes, making the lasso animations would be a ton of work, I didn't think it through.

It's also not clear if Shial can communicate with humans!

Yeah, and Cerberus too. But they were Thernobog's lieutenants, commanders of armies of spiders and fire doggos, so they needed some level of intelligence and ability to communicate with His other servants! Or at least I think so.
I mean... at least we canonically know that Cheog expressed his hatred for the Chosen, so at the very least he should be able to communicate with humans...

Finally, I think it's a bit too influenced by Blood 2.

It's only because Blood 2 has done some work in providing information about other Chosen. And, yes, I stole some weapon ideas... and yes, I agree, the overabundance of impractical weapons was one of Blood 2 many weak spots. Perhaps the devs should have fully embraced the cyberpunk/sci-fi vibes with references to Alien and The Thing - it would be acompletely different game, but maybe it would be less generic?

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

[Lizzieborden]

Ok V.,
...But how bout the soundtrack of a future Blood game? What style?
Unsettling Doom 64 kinda stuff? (one of my faves, courtesy of the Nightdive port)
Type O Negagtive (as on the 2nd cd for Blood)?
NIN ?
Although all are good, they seem off for blood.
Stumped here.

[Vantala]

In fact, I was thinking for different music styles for each episode... would it be too dumb if Caleb's episode had something sounding like Ennio Morricone or other classical western stuff (maybe changing to electric guitar arrangement when combat starts)? Well, changing to something more dark when he goes into the graboid nest. But I'm not a big expert in video game OST composing.

[Lizzieborden]

Grand idea about the Morricone part ---this would stress the Western aspect when Caleb is out and about. That's why I prefer the first track of the very first episode (messed me up as a toddler)
The Morricone-style parts could be heavy guitar and harmonica, kinda like Once upon a Time in the West, in the flash back between the hanging scene and the final duel. From that scene /song emanates pure evil.
But also inconsolable sadness.

Love those 1970s westerns. The Best. An old BF of mine introduced me to 'em a few years back. Older guy, but boy did he open my eyes about film and music.

Requiescat in Pace

[Lizzieborden]

Hey Vantala
Hope all is well in Estonia. If in a dark place, get out now.

[Vantala]

Hey. I've been kinda isolating myself from the big world around me... so, I'm mostly OK. Doing some table-top RPG stuff, tried writing a post "What if Quake had plot" on r/quake, had been booed by Quake fans... well, I'm mostly fine.